Code:
|
Also hadith can supercede an ayah if the hadith in question is mutawatir
|
Code:
|
Also according to the majority of the scholars (jumhur), a ruling of the Qur????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢an can be nullified by the Sunnah, as whatever the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) says is from Allah (Surah al-Najm,v4).
Example for this is the Hadith which says ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Wasiyya (bequest) is not permissible for an heir (inheritor). This cancels out the verse of the Qur????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢an which indicates that Wasiyyat is prescribed for parents (al-Baqara, v.180).
|
Code:
|
Now lets see what Imam Abu Yusuf r.h (student of Imam Abu Hanifa r.h) had to say about this. His statement can be found in great commentary of the Quran by Abu Bakkar al-Jassas called Ahkaamul-Qur'an (vol. 2, p.425):
The command of the Qur'an can be abrogated by the Sunnah (traditions of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) only if it has reached the level of Tawaatur or Istifadhah, such as the level of narration's of masah 'alal khuffain."
|
Code:
|
Imam Abu Bakar al-Jassas says:
Hanafis, Shaafis and Malikis, allowed the abrogation of the Sunnah by the Qur'an and vice verse...but they could not be abrogated by khabr al-wahid.
He says:
"Naskh is the declaration of the time of the particular ruling which we thought would remain for ever, but the second ruling made it clear that the time of the ruling was for a certain period and it was now no longer valid."
The ayat "we bring better or like thereof" God meant to state that He would make a ruling superior to the first in the sense of its being easier to perform, or richer in terms of reward.
The naskh implied that the later command abrogated the earlier. Sarakhsi says: "The contradiction between the sources is impossible, since this would mean Divine fallibility; in actuality the contradiction is created by our human inability to estimate correctly the date of the texts. Once this has been done, however, the later abrogates the earlier."
Usu1 al-Jassas, fol. 152a.
Ghazzali, Mustafa (2 vols.), Bulaq, 1322/1904, vol. 2, p. 125. Also see Tabari's Tafsir on al-Qur'an, II:106.
|
Al-Quraishi wrote:
|
It absolutely beggars belief that people believe this, all this falls down on what the basis of ones religion is, it's obvious that the basis of their religion is not the Qur'an and is in fact the erroneous hadith, just as the basis of the Christian is his erroneous 'Bible'. Even if you did prove it via the Qur'an the basis of their religion is that they value hadith more.
It's as simple as that - they value hadith more than the Qur'an - I have nothing but the most utter contempt for these so-called 'Muslims'
|
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
|
Ok regarding abrogation i might be wrong probably in the thick of things i wrote.
|
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
|
Once such eg, which came to my mind was regarding the Alcohol.
Because Allaah through a period of time got this habit out of the Arabs who used to drink like fish. Similar to de addiction camps for drug addicts.
|
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
|
I thought so, as i told you i might be wrong thats why i meant that Quran will abrogate the Quran and not the hadith. Please clarify if i am wrong.
|
Code:
|
Although these hadith seem at the moment, unrelated to the issue at hand, they provide the foundation for the upcoming conclusions.
The evidence for the permissibility of reciting al-Fatihah behind the imam in salats that are silent AND [b]aloud comes from the mutawatir hadith related by Imam al-Bukhari in which the Prophet(SAWS) said, "There is no salat for the one who does not recite the Fatihah." Even more relevant is the hadith on the authority of 'Ibaadah ibn as-Saamit(RA) in which he said that the Prophet(SAWS) prayed Salat al-FAJR (aloud salat) with him and some others. [/b]After the prayer, the Prophet(SAWS) asked, "Did I see you reciting behind the imam?" They replied, "Yes." The Prophet(SAWS) responded, "Do not recite anything except for the Mother of the Book, for there is no salat for the one who does not recite it." This hadith has been narrarated by Bukhari, Ahmad, at-Tahaawi, Abu Dawud, at-Tirmidhi, al-Bayhaqi and others.
Here we have a hadith about the morning prayer, in which the recitation is aloud, and the Prophet(SAWS) telling the people behind the imam to ONLY recite the Mother of the Book, which is Surah al-Fatihah!
|
Quote:
|
I think we have been brain washed to think as such, alcohol was forbidden because in it there is Ithm Kabir (Huge Sin) and all Ithm is forbidden as per The Quran, therefore Alcohol must be forbidden at once the moment the all Ithm was forbidden,
|
Quote:
|
however being forbidden does not mean that some believers will never touch it, it is not like they are saints, I'm sure many believers will commit that sin, now if that sin is committed then we can not perform Salat until our mind is clear again so we recognise what we say, it is the sunni corruption who tell us after we finish salat the Isha (the last salat in the day) then we can drink, what a load of non sense man
|
Quote:
|
I think we have been brain washed to think as such, alcohol was forbidden because in it there is Ithm Kabir (Huge Sin) and all Ithm is forbidden as per The Quran, therefore Alcohol must be forbidden at once the moment the all Ithm was forbidden,
|
Insan wrote:
|
All Ithm Kabir is forbidden as per quran?
|
Insan wrote:
|
Can it be said that Alcohol is not forbiden directly but technically yes.
|
Insan wrote:
|
1000 of arugments I have read, it is halal, it is haram. Isnt there any simple defination?
|
Insan wrote:
|
Being sunni I was learnet that alcohol is haram.
|
Insan wrote:
|
Thereafter I read some articles wtih qoutes from quran and article concluded it is no haram.[
|
Insan wrote:
|
I believed the articles must be right since it has direct quotes from quran.
|
Insan wrote:
|
Now Im thinking maybe maybe those articles were not right. Very confusing!
|
Quote:
|
however being forbidden does not mean that some believers will never touch it, it is not like they are saints, I'm sure many believers will commit that sin, now if that sin is committed then we can not perform Salat until our mind is clear again so we recognise what we say, it is the sunni corruption who tell us after we finish salat the Isha (the last salat in the day) then we can drink, what a load of non sense man
|
Insan wrote:
|
Maybe sunni from your place think "after we finish salat the Isha (the last salat in the day) then we can drink"
|
Insan wrote:
|
but most sunni I know who even drink thinks its haram.
|
Insan wrote:
|
Why blame sunni and not shia or the others. I do feel sad about this commet from senior man like you.
|
Insan wrote:
|
What is it, halal or haram alcohol ?
|
Insan wrote:
|
And Ithm Kabir (Huge Sin) can you please elaborate more, and are there (little sin) too ?
|
Insan wrote:
|
I also learned that anyone commiting kabir-sin by drinking aclohol and hvng an affiar will live in hell forever erver.
salam. wsalam.
|
iqbalismail wrote:
|
Assalam alaikum.
Is lier more bad then drinker or drinker more bad then lier? Is drinking more harram from lieing? Pls give reasan answer Inshallah. Jazakallah.
|
wel_mel_2 wrote:
|
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
|
wel_mel_2 wrote:
|
Do you mean to say that Prophet Muhammad pbuh was making up his own rules concerning adultery and that he goes against the Qur'an ?
|
wel_mel_2 wrote:
|
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: [Under Islamic laws in an Islamic state] It is not lawful to shed the blood of a Muslim except for one of three sins: a married person committing fornication, and in just retribution for premeditated murder, and [for sin of treason involving] a person renouncing Islam, and thus leaving the community [to join the enemy camp in order to wage war against the faithful]. (Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, and An-Nasa'i)
|
Muslimah wrote:
|
Bismillah
Brother Ahmed I think u really need to reconsider much of what you post, not because of who reads,
|
Muslimah wrote:
|
Re read the Ayahs carefully, and try to understand.
|
Muslimah wrote:
|
And if this is who u intend to translate the meanings of Quran,
|
Muslimah wrote:
|
then I sincerely advice you to hold on and try to revise your knowledge.
|
katlike wrote:
|
So your saying that the koran isn't very clear and is open to various, broad, interpretations?
|
katlike wrote:
|
What are you going to do if those muslims you are arguing with are correct and your wrong?
|
katlike wrote:
|
Are we kafirs to know any different?
|
katlike wrote:
|
Wouldn't this tiff amoung you be enough to prove the koran isn't real clear and the kafirs were right all along?
|
katlike wrote:
|
koran claims...it is clear and for all people of all time.
|
katlike wrote:
|
You and your rivals have certainly proven that is not the case.
|
katlike wrote:
|
I for one would agree with your arguement,
|
katlike wrote:
|
but I am not "learned" in the koran like your opposistion.
|
katlike wrote:
|
They must know islam and god much better than a pagen like me. And since you and I agree, what does that make you?
|
katlike wrote:
|
Care to tell us what should happen to you now that you are in agreement with a pagen?
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Hello brother Ahmed Bahgat, greetings and thank you for your informative post.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
I have quoted you in my thread on the similar topic.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=856563#856563
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Bro you seem to reject hadith in its entirety here, am I understanding you correctly?
|
Mughal wrote:
|
I still have problem understanding the perspective you are trying to give to the quran ie regarding your stance.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
For example, do you believe that islam is a complete and perfect way of life?
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Does your version of Islam separate between religion and state?
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Thanks for the thread and keep up the good work. O yes and good luck with your debate with our sunni brethren.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Thanks bro ahmed for taking the trouble to clarify your position.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
However, your explanation raises further questions eg
|
Mughal wrote:
|
what makes you think that the quran wants you to separate religion from state
|
Mughal wrote:
|
and how would you come to know whether a country is messed up or not
|
Mughal wrote:
|
and when exactly to separate religion and state
|
Mughal wrote:
|
And yes, it would be interesting to know what reply you are going to get from the sunni side, in your on going debate.
regards and
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
No trouble really, but you are welcome as long as you don't insult or lie about my prophet or the Quran.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Thanks and you know as well as I that I do not lie nor insult on purpose.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
My evidences if at all are all from the islamic sources regardless you like them or not.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
I only use evidences that are appropriate in a discussion and the person I am discussing things with.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
When I talk about islam in general I use standard islam and its standard well known sources because that is what a huge majoirty of muslims believe and in that case odd individuals are not taken into account.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Of course I am a human being and therefore not perfect and then neither are you my friend so we must not expect perfection of each other.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
This however does not mean that your views do not matter, for they do because whoever talks sense is also imporant to be considered.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Some times when we discuss things our positions are not clear as to where we each stand and that should not be taken as insults but lack of information about the people involved as to where they stand.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Just becuse you may not know my views or for that matter I may not know you views about islam should not be an obstacle.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Gradually we could move towards understanding each others views as discussions start and move on. So hope this clarifies the situation for both of us.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Well, because the state is going to perish, in fact the whole earth is going to perish and what will be left is only the faith and the good deeds, the rulers and the people are equal in that aspect.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Well bro, if you look at things from that point of view then state does not perish either as the concept of it lives on for all your rewards will be because of this state in the next state. Therefore life in this world cannot be separated from the next.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Moreover I was simply speaking in sense of politics in this world.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
So kindly if you please clarify the situation for me so that I could see how you see political separation of religion and state.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Well, that is easy to know, a country like Australia is not messed up and a country like Egypt is messed up, the level of ignorance, crime, corruption etc are major criteria to judge if a country if messed up or not
|
Mughal wrote:
|
But bro Australia is a secular nonmuslim state and egypt is a muslim state
|
Mughal wrote:
|
and therefore despite all goodness australia is not free of unislamic things
|
Mughal wrote:
|
and inspite of all bad things there is a hope egypt could become free of unislamic things.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
So I am a bit taken aback by your explanation so to speak. See if you can detail things a bit more for me.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
When the country is not messed up
|
Mughal wrote:
|
But Australia would seem messed up because there are unislamic things going on there all the time eg adutery, drinking, gambling just to name a few. Again please clarify things for me if you can, thanks.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
When the contry is messed up, this is because when you apply the sharia of Allah in a country, then the first questionable citizen should be the ruler, on the other hand in a messed up country, you need to not only educate them politically but religioulsy as well and if you are the ruler it will be much easier to do so, when the people who are living in Jahillia are educated religiously enough, we can leave them on their own, at least we know that this is what they are going to do to their children, therefore we will replace the messed up generations with a religiously educated one that fear no one but Allah not their rulers or others.
|
Mughal wrote:
|
I understand the later part but not the first in your this reply. I do not think that when people are corrupt you can apply shariah,
|
Mughal wrote:
|
for why would people who are corrupt let you apply shariah?
|
Mughal wrote:
|
In other words only islamically good would want shariah and not others
|
Mughal wrote:
|
and if people are already islamcially good then you are saying let them be free,
|
Mughal wrote:
|
which is again a confusing answer as I see it,
|
Mughal wrote:
|
so please clarify exactly what is it that you want me to make of your this explanation?
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
It is a challenge to them, because my comment is very well put as you can see. See, I used what the enemy of Islam say against them but yet proved that both are wrong using the Quran, that is not an easy task btw, that is why I believe my article is irrefutable by both. See, falsehood is destined to perish
Salam
|
Mughal wrote:
|
Well, I wish you luck and wait and see what you get in reply if anything at all. I think sunnies are a tough nut to crack
|
Mughal wrote:
|
and as far as perishing of falsehood, so far the falsehood (whatever it means to anyone) has not perished but you never know time has not ended yet.
Thank for your reply bro, take care and
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
iqbalismail wrote:
|
Assalam alaikum.
Is lier more bad then drinker or drinker more bad then lier? Is drinking more harram from lieing? Pls give reasan answer Inshallah. Jazakallah.
|
Salam mate and welcome to Free-Islam
Lying is a sin of course, we were ordered in the Quran to say the truth even if it will hurt us, we also told that if we lie about Allah it will be a great sin and we will be following what Satan wants us to do exactly, we were also told many times to be with Al Sadiqeen, i.e. the truthful, which means those who don't lie, so I say it is not a small sin, as well I'm not really sure if its ithim magintude is described as the case of Alcohol, i have to do more researches inshallah and get back to you, however assuming that the ithim in lying is described as te ithim in alcohol was described, i.e. in it there is ithim kabir, that still does not make them equal in magnitude, we will never know how Allah judge the two compared to each other but we now well that one was described as in it is ithim kabir and the other was repeatedly warned against and the contrary of it which be truthful is the main theme of the Quran
Allah knows best
Take care
|
Baal wrote:
|
"Let he with no sin, casts the first stone."
|
Baal wrote:
|
"Father, Father, Why have you forsaken me."
|
Baal wrote:
|
Hello Ahmad,
That is a good and precise debate on why stoning should not be allowed in islam.
|
Baal wrote:
|
I feel sorry you have to deal with those mockery of humanity,
|
Baal wrote:
|
that would ask you to reconsider without taking the time to read or pinpoint what obviously took you a very long time to put together.
|
Baal wrote:
|
Your logic is that since Uthman's koran made a ruling and the hadith gives another ruling then Uthman's Koran takes precedence. Your logic is correct.
|
Baal wrote:
|
Unfortunately for Islam and for those 2 people you were arguing with: You also open the door that Muhammed, for years, wrongfully stoned a lot of people.
|
Baal wrote:
|
One act of stoning I recall, took Muhammed 3 years from the moment Muhammed knew about the act to the moment of execution. It is impossible that, on such a critical judgement, as to executing a young new mother with a very painful and prolongued method, Muhammed did not ask Allah and Gabriel for advice and guidance.
|
iqbalismail wrote:
|
Jazakallah and u too welcome.
|
iqbalismail wrote:
|
I always very argue with my freinds about what faraz in Islam.
|
iqbalismail wrote:
|
I not say drinking alocohol good or not read namaz good but only say that doing other good things like speak truth and help others equal goodness.
|
iqbalismail wrote:
|
BUt they say NO not matter if u speak lie and, do bad but reading namaz most importent.
|
iqbalismail wrote:
|
I do not readQuran so I do not know true.
|
iqbalismail wrote:
|
What Quran tell is most important? Give reasan answer Inshallah
Jazakallah.
|
Quote:
|
iqbalismail wrote: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¹ Select ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????º
BUt they say NO not matter if u speak lie and, do bad but reading namaz most importent.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
iqbalismail wrote:
|
Assalam alaikum
|
Salam mate
iqbalismail wrote:
|
Jazakallah and u too welcome.
|
No worries
iqbalismail wrote:
|
I always very argue with my freinds about what faraz in Islam.
|
Sorry mate, what is faraz?, do you mean obligatory?
iqbalismail wrote:
|
I not say drinking alocohol good or not read namaz good but only say that doing other good things like speak truth and help others equal goodness.
|
Sure
iqbalismail wrote:
|
BUt they say NO not matter if u speak lie and, do bad but reading namaz most importent.
|
I donlt get you bro, can you please elaborate?
iqbalismail wrote:
|
I do not readQuran so I do not know true.
|
Please try to read it and ask me questions if you have any, I will do my best to answer them to the best of my knowledge
iqbalismail wrote:
|
What Quran tell is most important? Give reasan answer Inshallah
Jazakallah.
|
I believe the most important thing to do in this test is to believe in Allah and not take any associates whatsoever with him,
Take care
|
Life wrote:
|
Quote:
|
iqbalismail wrote: ‹ Select ›
BUt they say NO not matter if u speak lie and, do bad but reading namaz most importent.
|
I donlt get you bro, can you please elaborate?
Hes is talking about those people who are corrupt, and they say salat is compulsary no matter what you do.
In my opinion these people live with false hope, becasue they think and do false things. Actually they are blind. But to question their salat is wrong, its a matter between human and God. And nobody knows what is in anybody heart.
Salam
|
Life wrote:
|
Quote:
|
iqbalismail wrote: ‹ Select ›
BUt they say NO not matter if u speak lie and, do bad but reading namaz most importent.
|
I donlt get you bro, can you please elaborate?
Hes is talking about those people who are corrupt, and they say salat is compulsary no matter what you do.
In my opinion these people live with false hope, becasue they think and do false things. Actually they are blind. But to question their salat is wrong, its a matter between human and God. And nobody knows what is in anybody heart.
Salam
|
Assalam alaikum
Yaa yaa. They say do bad thing and read namaz more good. I say not do bad thing and not read namaz more good. WHat i try telling is I tell Listen if only read namaz or only do no bad thing then only do no bad thing. What Quran say abaut this? Pls give reasan answer Inshallah. Jazakallah.
- Fri 08 Jun, 2007 12:50 am
Post subject: I TELLING LISTEN
Assalam alaikum
Quran not telling anything? Very sad. I retell what i telling. Listen in Day of Qayamat Allah (S.W.T) more forgeve not reading namaz and less forgeve doing bad thing. Am my friend right or I right? Pls give reasan answer Inshallah. JazAkallah.
I forget telling. My freinds reading namaz rich n Me poor. If I telling anythings to them they telling me than why do Allah (S.W.T) making us rich n making u poor? I telling them many gayr musalman too SOOO rich. SO what if I poor n they rich. BUt I think they right n I sad.
- Thu 28 Apr, 2011 5:46 pm
Post subject:
Wonderful post...
- Sun 01 May, 2011 1:21 pm
Post subject:
Salam all;
Well concerning the status of alcohol, I will put in my two-cents worth (taken from the commentary):
???????????????¢??They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder.???????????????¢????????????????
2:219
The precepts of Islam are clarified by the Qur???????????????¢??an (it is the Criterion). Zakat is what we can afford. This ayah also shows that there is no abrogation concerning alcohol. Revealed before 4:43 and 5:90-91, it clearly states that consuming alcohol is a sin. 4:43 merely mentions the conditions for prayer (state of mind, ablution etc.) whilst 5:90 declares that intoxicants are the work of Iblis. Why would Allah (SWT) wait until 5:93 to declare this? Did intoxicants only become the work of Iblis at that moment? No, 5:90-91 is a reminder for the inhabitants of Medina:
???????????????¢??O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan???????????????¢??s work; shun it therefore that you may be successful. The Shaitan only desires to cause enmity and hatred to spring in your midst by means of intoxicants and games of chance, and to keep you off from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. Will you then desist????????????????¢????????????????
5:90-91
The words ???????????????¢??Will you then desist????????????????¢???????????????? confirms that it is a reminder. To a new ayah, 16:67 should not be considered an allowance for the consumption of alcoholic beverages. Rather, it states that alcohol AND goodly provision is obtained from the palm and grapes. One is that which is pure and wholesome food for us, and the other is that which turns into alcohol after it rots. It has been left to our choice to obtain pure, healthy food from this providence or to drink it as an intoxicating wine (exciting us and making us lose self-control). This also contains a hint as to the prohibition of wine.
In short, there is no punishment for drinking alcohol, but as a matter between each person and Allah (SWT), it seems to represent a black mark on one's faith.
Peace.
All times are GMT + 10 Hours
Powered by phpBB 2.0 .0.17 © 2001
phpBB
Group