AhmedBahgat wrote:
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You need to tell us what are Jesus teachings first?
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jsc wrote:
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Jesus teachings per what muslems has always believed (that He is not a God so forth and so on). These teachings were then, as believed by muslims and supported by their authoritative sources (Quran, Hadith etc), corrupted by Christians.
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jsc wrote:
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Yes, yes, yes....
When did that happen? Support your answer with authoritative Islamic sources (Quran, Hadith, traditional moslem scholars exegesis).
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Haik Monsieur wrote:
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Now, I will quote your book in context and see what it is:
And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). Quran. 5:46]
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Haik Monsieur wrote:
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Allah says he imparted Jesus ?????????????????????¢??Injeel?????????????????????¢?? (Gospels),filled with full of guidance and light (of truth). Next?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¦
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Haik Monsieur wrote:
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So, let the People of the gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. [Quran Chapter 5:47]
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Haik Monsieur wrote:
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Lo! Your god declares it clearly. It can?????????????????????¢??t be more clear than this. ?????????????????????¢??since god has revealed Gospels to Jesus with full of guidance and light, people of the Gospels shall judge by which Allah has revealed therein?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? Remember god speaks to mankind through Muhammad according to what you Muslims claim. Your god says 'let Christians (the people of gospels) judge by gospels' We get the idea Gospels during the time of Muhammad was full of guidance and light to the extent the god of Islam hasn?????????????????????¢??t any disagreement with them.
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As you can see above, he picked up only verses 5:46-47, despite that from verses 5:41 to verse 5:49 are all related together to create one context, I have already explained it once but it seems that he is stupid enough not to get it, so let bring all 9 verses in here as walk you through it verse by verse:
Verse 5:41 starts with Allah talking to Mohammed about some people and the Jews:
O Messenger! let not them grieve you who hasten into disbelief from among those who said: We believed, with their mouths, but their hearts did not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners to the lies, listeners to another people who have not come to you; they distort the words from their places, they say: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and whomsoever Allah wants his trial, you will never possess power for him against Allah; those are the ones whom Allah does not want to purify their hearts; for them in this world a disgrace and for them in the hereafter a great torture.
[Al Quran ; 5:41]
يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ لاَ يَحْزُنكَ الَّذِينَ يُسَارِعُونَ فِي الْكُفْرِ مِنَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ آمَنَّا بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَلَمْ تُؤْمِن قُلُوبُهُمْ وَمِنَ الَّذِينَ هِادُواْ سَمَّاعُونَ لِلْكَذِبِ سَمَّاعُونَ لِقَوْمٍ آخَرِينَ لَمْ يَأْتُوكَ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ مِن بَعْدِ مَوَاضِعِهِ يَقُولُونَ إِنْ أُوتِيتُمْ هَذَا فَخُذُوهُ وَإِن لَّمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُواْ وَمَن يُرِدِ اللّهُ فِتْنَتَهُ فَلَن تَمْلِكَ لَهُ مِنَ اللّهِ شَيْئًا أُوْلَئِكَ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُرِدِ اللّهُ أَن يُطَهِّرَ قُلُوبَهُمْ لَهُمْ فِي الدُّنْيَا خِزْيٌ وَلَهُمْ فِي الآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ (41)
-> See: O Messenger! let not them grieve you who hasten into disbelief from among those who said: We believed, with their mouths, but their hearts did not believe,, that was about some certain people, here what is about the Jews: and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners to the lies, listeners to another people who have not come to you;, then Allah confirms again that the Jews corrupted His message: they distort the words from their places,, then they also add further corruption: they say: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious;
In the next verse 5:42 we read further information regarding the Jews, as well, Allah informed Mohammed that if any of them comes to him seeking judgment of anything then it is up to Mohammed to judge or ignore, what Mohammed chooses won?????????????????????¢??t cause harm to him by them, but if he chooses to judge then he must do it with equity
Listeners to the lies, devourers of the unlawful; therefore if they come to you, judge between them or turn aside from them, and if you turn aside from them, they shall not harm you a thing; and if you judge, then judge between them with equity; indeed Allah loves those who act justly.
[Al Quran ; 5:42]
سَمَّاعُونَ لِلْكَذِبِ أَكَّالُونَ لِلسُّحْتِ فَإِن جَآؤُوكَ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم أَوْ أَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ وَإِن تُعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ فَلَن يَضُرُّوكَ شَيْئًا وَإِنْ حَكَمْتَ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُمْ بِالْقِسْطِ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ (42)
-> See what we are told about the Jews: Listeners to the lies, devourers of the unlawful; , then if any seek judgment from Mohammed: therefore if they come to you, judge between them or turn aside from them, and if you turn aside from them, they shall not harm you a thing; and if you judge, then judge between them with equity;
As you can see from the context so far that it is PAST facts accompanied by some commands from Allah to Mohammed, the next verse 4:43 is further information to the previous verse regarding the judgment the Jews may seek of Mohammed:
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat, in it is the judgment of Allah? Moreover they turn back after that, and those are not the believers.
[Al Quran ; 5:43]
وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِن بَعْدِ ذَلِكَ وَمَا أُوْلَئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ (
43)
-> It is sort of that it won?????????????????????¢??t happen that they will accept his judgment because they already have the Torah but they turned away from it: And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat, in it is the judgment of Allah? Moreover they turn back after that, and those are not the believers., very logical indeed, if they already have the Torah which must have included the Judgment of Allah, but they forgot a great part of it as the Quran told us in 5:13, as well they distorted the words of the message out of their intended places as we are told in 5:13 & 5:41, as well they concealed a great part of the message as we are told in 5:15, they have done all that and corrupted the message of Allah because they do not accept the Judgment of Allah, how they may possibly accept it from Mohammed then?, perfect sense
The next verse 5:44 is telling us some facts about the Torah that was sent to them:
We have sent down the Taurat in which was guidance and light; the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judge by it for those who were Jews, and the Rabbis and the scholars, because of that which they entrusted of the Book of Allah, and they were over it witnesses; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price in exchange for My signs; and whoever does not judge by what Allah has sent down, those are ones who are the unbelievers.
[Al Quran ; 5:44]
إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُواْ لِلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُواْ مِن كِتَابِ اللّهِ وَكَانُواْ عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاء فَلاَ تَخْشَوُاْ النَّاسَ وَاخْشَوْنِ وَلاَ تَشْتَرُواْ بِآيَاتِي ثَمَنًا قَلِيلاً وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ (44)
-> The verse is simply telling us what the Torah is and what objective it was sent for: here is what the Torah is: in which was guidance and light, the objective of the Torah was simply as follow: the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judge by it for those who were Jews, and the Rabbis and the scholars, because of that which they entrusted of the Book of Allah, and they were over it witnesses, but did the Jews do that?, of course not, because the Quran told us the fact that they forgot a great part of it as the Quran told us in 5:13, as well they distorted the words of the message out of their intended places as we are told in 5:13 & 5:41, as well they concealed a great part of the message as we are told in 5:15, see how the verses ended in a logical fact for any believer, I?????????????????????¢??m going to put it on a new line to make it stand out as it will be repeated 3 times as we read the next verses:
وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ
i.e.
and whoever does not judge by what Allah has sent down, those are ones who are the unbelievers.
And we know already from the Quran that the Jews are of such type of people.
The next verse 4:45 tells us more about the Torah:
And We ordained upon them in it that the soul is for the soul, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and the wounds are retribution; but whoever foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever does not judge by what Allah has sent down, those are ones who are the unjust.
وَكَتَبْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ فِيهَا أَنَّ النَّفْسَ بِالنَّفْسِ وَالْعَيْنَ بِالْعَيْنِ وَالأَنفَ بِالأَنفِ وَالأُذُنَ بِالأُذُنِ وَالسِّنَّ بِالسِّنِّ وَالْجُرُوحَ قِصَاصٌ فَمَن تَصَدَّقَ بِهِ فَهُوَ كَفَّارَةٌ لَّهُ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ (45)
[Al Quran ; 5:45]
-> Some idiots on this web site allege that the above is a mistake in the Quran because they do not read in the Torah: that the soul is for the soul, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and the wounds are retribution;, well, thank you idiot for confirming the Quran charges against the Jews that they they forgot a great part of it as the Quran told us in 5:13, as well they distorted the words of the message out of their intended places as we are told in 5:13 & 5:41, as well they concealed a great part of the message as we are told in 5:15, see how the verse ended:
وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ
i.e.
and whoever does not judge by what Allah has sent down, those are ones who are the unjust.
And we know already from the Quran that the Jews are of such type of people.
After the Jews corrupted their message, Allah sent an additional message to them as the next verse 5:46 tells us:
And We caused to follow after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was between his hands of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel, in it was guidance and light, and verifying what was between his hands of the Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for the pious.
[Al Quran ; 5:46]
وَقَفَّيْنَا عَلَى آثَارِهِم بِعَيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًى وَنُورٌ وَمُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَهُدًى وَمَوْعِظَةً لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ (46)
-> See how the context is flowing when the story shifted from the Jews to the Christians: And We caused to follow after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, the mission of Isa was clearly: verifying what was between his hands of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel,, i.e. all the people at that time must follow the Torah and the Injeel, i.e. the Injeel did not overwrite the Torah as conman Paul was preaching
The next verse 5:47 is telling us the objective of the Injeel, which is simply to Judge things in life with what Allah sent in it:
And the people of the Injeel should judge by what Allah has sent down in it; and whoever does not judge by what Allah has sent down, those are the ones who are the transgressors.
[Al Quran ; 5:47]
وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الإِنجِيلِ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ (47)
-> See: And the people of the Injeel should judge by what Allah has sent down in it;, but we know well that the Quran told us that they did not, the Christians forgot parts of the message of the Injeel 5:14 and they concealed a great part of it 5:15 and finally they totally corrupted their religion by claiming that Isa is God 5:17, therefore, the above verse is nothing but a mere fact to what should the Christians have done when Allah sent top them Jesus who had been taught both the uncorrupted Torah and the Injeel as the message that he was carrying to the people. See how the verse ended again:
وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ
i.e.
and whoever does not judge by what Allah has sent down, those are ones who are the transgressors.
And we know already from the Quran that the Christians and the Jews are of such type of people. Because:
A) The Jews forgot a great part of the message as the Quran told us in 5:13, as well, they distorted the words of the message out of their intended places as we are told in 5:13 & 5:41 and they concealed a great part of the message as we are told in 5:15
B) The Christians forgot a great part of the message as the Quran told us in 5:14, as well, they concealed a great part of the message as we are told in 5:15
The above two cases must constitute corruption, that is why Allah sent a final message to them as we will be told in the next 2 verses, but let me pause in here for a moment and discuss another clear corruption in the message of Jesus, you may have noticed above that I stated that at the time of Jesus message, all who heard it should have followed the Torah and the Injeel, this is because the Injeel was an addition to the message of the Torah, i.e. Jesus must have been taught an un corrupted version of the Torah so he fulfil part of his mission which is to verify what should be the true words of the Torah, the other part of his mission was to deliver the Injeel, therefore the Jews at the time should have followed the true Torah verified by Jesus as well the Injeel, also any new Christian should have done the same, this is if they truly believed in Jesus, the current Bible as we have it confirms that Jesus ordered his followers to uphold the Torah, let?????????????????????¢??s have a look:
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[Matthew 5:17-19]
-> See: Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill , then Jesus added: till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled, then he ended it by saying the following regarding the commadments sent to Moses: Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The Quran actauuly confirms that Jesus was taught both the Torah and the Injeel, let?????????????????????¢??s have a look:
And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel.
[Al Quran ; 3:48]
وَيُعَلِّمُهُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَالتَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ (48)
-> See what Allah taught Jesus: And He (Allah) will teach him (Jesus)?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¦?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¦. the Taurat and the Injeel , i.e. the Torah was part of Jesus message that he carried, but an un corrupted version of it taught to him directly by Allah, remember what Paul did and most Chrstians back then and up till today are following path, Paul abolished the Old Law, ironically too that most of the Jews whom Jesus was sent to, rejected the message of the Injeel and kept upjolding their corrupt version of their Torah, the Christian on the other hand under the control of conman Paul, forgot a great part of what was said to them in the Injeel as well they concealed a great part of it, as well totally abolished the old law as preached by Paul who used a silly example of a married couple to justify his crap regarding the old law.
Back to sura 5 again, as a clear mercy from Allah, He sent to them (The Jews and the Chrsitians) one more final message, it is not going to go on forever and this time no one will be able to corrupt it and this is the subject of the next verse 5:48
And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is between his hands of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has sent down, and do not follow their desires in change of what has come to you of the truth; for every one of you We made a law and a way, and had Allah willed He would have made you a single nation, but that He might test you in what He gave you, therefore strive for virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return all together, and He will inform you concerning that in which you differed;
[Al Quran ; 5:48]
وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجًا وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَكِن لِّيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَآ آتَاكُم فَاسْتَبِقُوا الخَيْرَاتِ إِلَى الله مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (48)
-> See, what happened next: And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is between his hands of the Book and a guardian over it, between his hands is a metaphor to mean what is before it, i.e. the Quran verifies the books sent before it, i.e. the Quran exposes any corruption in both the Torah and the Injeel, exactly as the Injeel suppose to have exposes the corruption in the Torah, the Quran however is a guardian over all these books, I guess the word guardian is the wrong translation to the words مُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ , Muhaimenan Alaihi, I believe the best translation should be A ruler over it, i.e. the Quran overrules the books before it. Mohammed then was ordered to judge between the Jews and the Christians with what Allah sent to him, i.e. with the Quran: therefore judge between them by what Allah has sent down, i.e. the Quran overwrote what in their books, in fact Mohammed was warned to follow anything they claim: and do not follow their desires in change of what has come to you of the truth;, a clear proof of the Quran confirmation of their (the Jews and the Christians) corruption in their religions, the same order and warning were repeated in the next verse 5:49
And judge between them by what Allah has sent down, and do not follow their desires, and be cautious of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has sent down to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah wants to strike them by some of their sins; and indeed many of the people are transgressors.
[Al Quran ; 5:49]
وَأَنِ احْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءهُمْ وَاحْذَرْهُمْ أَن يَفْتِنُوكَ عَن بَعْضِ مَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ إِلَيْكَ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللّهُ أَن يُصِيبَهُم بِبَعْضِ ذُنُوبِهِمْ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ النَّاسِ لَفَاسِقُونَ (49)
-> See: And judge between them by what Allah has sent down, and do not follow their desires, and be cautious of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has sent down to you;
Here you have it, a story line over 3 subsequent religions, it started with Judaism stating what the Torah is and the objective of it, then it moved to the next book sent which was the Injeel stating what it is and what objective it was sent to, then it moved to the next and final and book which overrules over all other books, the Quran, the verses in no way imply that anyone Jew or Christian who heard the message of the Quran to stay following their own corrupted messages, this is logically flawed because the Quran was sent after both the Jews and the Christians corrupted their messages, indeed a great portion in the Quran is directed to those who claim to be Jews and Christians
Salam all
- Tue 16 Sep, 2008 11:40 pm
Post subject:
Salam all
I would like to show you the definition of the English word 'Gospel'
In Christianity, a gospel (from Old English, "good news") is generally one of four canonical books of the New Testament that describe the birth, life, ministry, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus, but also encompasses numerous non-canonical texts, see list of gospels.
List of Gospels:
Completely preserved Gospels:
Gospel of Mark, canonical
Gospel of Matthew, canonical
Gospel of Luke, canonical
Gospel of John, canonical
Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Truth
Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians
Gospel of Nicodemus (also known as the "acts of Pilate")
Gospel of Barnabas
Gospel of the Nativity of Mary
Gospel of Gamaliel
Infancy Gospels:
Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
Infancy Gospel of Thomas
Infancy Gospel of James
Arabic Infancy Gospel
Syriac Gospel of the Boyhood of our Lord Jesus
The Nag Hammadi Library, among which the Gospel of Thomas & the Gospel of Truth were rediscovered
Partially preserved Gospels:
Gospel of Judas
Gospel of Peter
Gospel of Mary
Gospel of Philip
Fragmentary preserved Gospels:
Dialogue of the Saviour
Papyrus Egerton 2
Gospel of Eve
Fayyum Fragment
Gospel of Mani
Oxyrhynchus Gospels
Gospel of the Saviour (also known as the unknown Berlin gospel)
Gospel of the Twelve
Reconstructed Gospels:
Gospel of the Ebionites
Gospel of the Egyptians
Gospel of the Hebrews
Secret Gospel of Mark
Gospel of Matthias
Gospel of the Nazoraeans
Gospel of Q (also known as the "Q document")
Signs Gospel
Cross Gospel
Lost Gospels:
Gospel of Bartholomew
Gospel of the Seventy
Gospel of the Four Heavenly Realms
Gospel of Perfection
Gospel of Marcion
Gospel of Basilides
Gospel of Apelles
Gospel of Cerinthus
Gospel of Bardesanes
Gospel of Merinthus
Gospel of Thaddaeus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gospels
Now if we take it that Gospel means Injil, then all the above gospels can not be the Injil that Allah sent down to Jesus, this is because, Allah sent only one Injil, i.e. one Gospel
What more corruption than the above list of man made gospels?
Salam
- Tue 16 Sep, 2008 11:55 pm
Post subject:
Salam all
In the list of 'Completely Preserved Gospels', we read that the Gospel of Barnabas is one of them, many years ago I have read it all, I actually believe that many parts of such Gospel still corrupted, however I also believe that many parts of it are saying the truth, this is the case with every Gospel that I read, I accept parts of it and reject other parts of it. If you remember that in this thread I accused Paul of being a conman, well, it is not just me who accused him of such, in fact many including Christians portray him the same, Barnabas is one of them. The Gospel of Barnabas consists of 222 chapters, let me show you the last chapter and see what Barnabas said about Paul:
222: Jesus Carried Up to Heaven
After Jesus had departed, the disciples scattered through the different parts of Israel and of the world, and the truth, hated of Satan, was persecuted, as it always is, by falsehood. For certain evil men, pretending to be disciples, preached that Jesus died and rose not again. Others preached that he really died, but rose again. Others preached, and yet preach, that Jesus is the Son of God, among whom is Paul deceived. But we - as much as I have written - we preach to those that fear God, that they may be saved in the last day of God's Judgment. Amen.
[Gospel of Barnabas ; 222]
-> See, For certain evil men............Others preached, and yet preach, that Jesus is the Son of God, among whom is Paul deceived., i.e. Paul was deceived by Satan, i.e. Paul is a conman exactly as I classified him.
Salam
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