tanveermd wrote:
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Salaamun alaikum brother AhmedBahgat, all,
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I agree that "masjid" means a place where one performs the sujud,
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but that place could be the heart or the mind as well.
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The heart and the mind are also a PLACE, and a PLACE does not have to be physical.
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In Arabic we hear about "al-masjid Al-Azhar issuing a fatwa". Now it is not a physical building that issued the fatwa but a group of people at an institution who issued the fatwa. Just like we say that the Senate or the Congress decided .......
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So masjid is an institution or a place which could be both physical and mental. We have to look at the context of the verses in each case to determine if its usage implies physical or mental.
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WHY AL-MASJID AL-HARAM CANNOT BE PHYSICAL:
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According to the context of 2:144, al-masjid al-haram can only be mental and means the "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" which can easily be the mind or the heart.
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One can face this mental "masjid al-haram", "the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" WHEREVER one is. If al-masjid al-haram is physical then one CANNOT face it WHEREVER one is.
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2:144 We see the shifting of thy face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you: "You shall set yourself towards masjid al-haram; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
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Now it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to face a focal point WHEREVER one is.
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Firstly that assumes that the Earth is flat. However the reality is that the Earth is round. You can face a physical building only until it is in your line of sight. As soon as you get further away from it and it disappears beyond the horizon, you are no longer facing it but facing a point in the sky/space many degrees away from the physical building which could be many miles away depending on one's exact location and the distance from the physical building.
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Secondly, where will one face if one is on a place on Earth directly opposite to the place where the physical building is located ?
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Should one face one way or the opposite way then ?
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Actually both will be wrong because one will actually be looking at a point in space MANY MILES away from the actual physical building !!
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Thirdly, where will one face if one is in space, for example near MARS ?
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2:115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
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2:142 The foolish from amongst the people will Say: "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say: "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
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This 2:142 is clear cut proof that the qiblah could not have been physical. If it was physical, it will make no sense for The God to say "to God is the east and the west" in reply to the foolish questioning about the new focal point.
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2:177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day..........
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All these verses and the above mentioned scientific facts prove that the focal point is not physical but mental.
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Also at the time of revelation of the qur'aan, there is no historical or archeological evidence of the existence of a PHYSICAL BUILDING by the name of "masjid al-haram". That name was given to a physical building many years after the qur'aan was revealed so how could The God be referring to a physical building in the qur'aan when it did not even exist ?
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The mind/heart is a PLACE, so of course it can be the masjid, especially "masjid al-haram" and one can face this "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" WHEREVER one is.
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noble wrote:
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I am aware and accept most of The author and many of Ayman's views. I have come to realise that the Qibla might be in fact in Jerusalem, and that Prophet Mohammed was born and lived in the vicinity of Jerusalem, which is logical due to all the Bani Israel Prophets mainly coming from there and the Al Qumran community for which Allah devotes a lot reference to in the second chapter of Al Quran.
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???????????????? Jerusalem ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢?? City of God?
In looking to the area surrounding the location where the town of Lot may have once stood, we find ourselves near the historic city of Jerusalem which is claimed by all descendants of the Abrahamic faith to be a site of importance for monotheism.
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???????????????? Beca/Jerusalem is still Mohammed's Focal Point.
????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????The first sanctuary established for the people is the one in Bakk????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? (The Message 3:96)
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Although Mohammed has been evicted, he is still upholding the focal point of the Temple in Jerusalem????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦This would explain why the Sunnis and Shia record until today that the prophet did indeed face Jerusalem for the first part of his stay in Medina (as evidenced by the mosque with two qiblas) and why they still call Jerusalem the ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????1st qibla????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢.
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???????????????? God Establishes a new Focal Point (Qibla):
????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????The foolish from amongst the people will Say: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Say: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? (The Message 2:142)
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Here is a clear 'turning' away from the existing focal point to newer one.
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In-fact, this is where traditions and archeology meet with the Scripture as they relate that when the prophet came to Medina, he set the focal point towards the North East (in this case they claim Jerusalem), and that after a period of time he set it in the opposite direction.
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What is an interesting point to note is that if we drew a straight line from Medina to Jerusalem (in-line with the original qibla as per the Scripture), and then we extend the same line completely in the opposite direction (in-line with the turning away from the qibla as per the Scripture), we see that the alleged temple of Mecca, contrary to what the Sunnis and Shia claimed, does not come onto this path.
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As for Mohammed's people...it was a 'test' of sorts:
????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? (The Message 2:143)
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???????????????? The Restricted Temple is finally liberated:
After what seems like an impossibility...Mohammed is finally home...The Temple at Baca/Jerusalem is liberated:
????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????God has fulfilled with truth His messenger's vision: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????You will enter the Restricted Temple, God willing, secure*, with your heads shaven and shortened, having no fear.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Thus, He knew what you did not know, and He has coupled with this a near victory.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? (The Message 48:27)
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???????????????? The Focal Point (Qibla) is Shifted Back to Baca/Jerusalem.
It can be hypothesized that the change in qibla away from Jerusalem was one of the largest single contributors to the situation we see today where Muslims do not follow God????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s system. This hypothesis would make the most sense especially of the re-shifting of the qibla back to Jerusalem did not take place until close to the end of the prophet????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s life, soon after or during his liberation of Baca/Jerusalem:
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????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????The foolish from amongst the people will Say: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Say: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? (The Message 2:142)
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????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? (The Message 2:143)
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????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????We see the shifting of thy face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? (The Message 2:144)
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????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? (The Message 2:150)
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The Muslims today are confused to the above verses in thinking that the shift towards the ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Restricted Temple????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢ was God????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s command for Mohammed when he shifted away from Jerusalem (and they assume towards the shrine of Mecca). The problem with this understanding is that in 2:142 the ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????change????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? had already taken place and the people were commenting about it (i.e. 'what made them change from their Qibla?').
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While in 2:144 the Prophet is given ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????new????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? instructions to use the focal point of the ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Restricted Temple????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? (which cannot be Mecca because the first change of Qibla that was meant to be a ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????test????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? has already happened and thus the people were all facing the focal point opposite Jerusalem).
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???????????????? Previous Structures Preceding the Dome of the Rock;
Since the location of God????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s Temple is deemed to be that where the current Dome of the Rock stands (constructed in 687 A.D.), then it should stand that previous structures have existed on this site since the time of Abraham?
Research shows that indeed this site was the location where the Temple of Solomon stood, and, more recently, the Temple of Herod that was standing during the time of Jesus????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢ journey to Jerusalem.
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u] Let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s recap the author understanding before I represent the major flaw in it:[/u]
1) Mohammad was living in Jerusalem and was taking Jerusalem as the Qiblah
2) Mohammad was forced to migrate from Jerusalem to Yathrib but he kept taking Jerusalem as the Qiblah for sometime 2:142
3) Mohammad then ordered to change the Qiblah from Jerusalem to another location as a test to the believers 2:142-2:143
4) At almost the end of Mohammad mission, he was ordered to set the Qiblah back to Jerusalem where it suppose to be ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????The City of God????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
What I noticed clearly that the author SKIPPED 2:145 (He never talked about it despite forms of the word Qiblahwas mentioned 3 TIMES, let me bring it here along with 2:144):
144- Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a Qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.
145- And even if you bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow your Qiblah, nor can you be a follower of their Qiblah, neither are they the followers of each other's Qiblah, and if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among the unjust.
[The Quran ; 2:144-145]
قَدْ نَرَى تَقَلُّبَ وَجْهِكَ فِي السَّمَاء فَلَنُوَلِّيَنَّكَ قِبْلَةً تَرْضَاهَا فَوَلِّ وَجْهَكَ شَطْرَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ وَحَيْثُ مَا كُنتُمْ فَوَلُّواْ وُجُوِهَكُمْ شَطْرَهُ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ أُوْتُواْ الْكِتَابَ لَيَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ وَمَا اللّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا يَعْمَلُونَ (144)
وَلَئِنْ أَتَيْتَ الَّذِينَ أُوْتُواْ الْكِتَابَ بِكُلِّ آيَةٍ مَّا تَبِعُواْ قِبْلَتَكَ وَمَا أَنتَ بِتَابِعٍ قِبْلَتَهُمْ وَمَا بَعْضُهُم بِتَابِعٍ قِبْلَةَ بَعْضٍ وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتَ أَهْوَاءهُم مِّن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ إِنَّكَ إِذَاً لَّمِنَ الظَّالِمِينَ (145)
-> As we can see the prophet was not happy with current Qiblah he was pointing to:????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a Qiblah which you shall like;????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, according to the history, the existing Qiblah that the prophet didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t like was Jerusalem and according to the author of the article it has to be whatever was the new direction that was set as a test when he migrated to Yatherib but not Jerusalem, then came the order to change the Qiblah to Al Masjid Al Haram, a place suppose to be liked by the Prophet: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????? turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, now according to the history that change is from Jerusalem to Mecca and according to The author it was from whatever it was pointing back to Jerusalem
-> Here comes the verse the author totally ignored where the form of the word Qiblah is mentioned 3 times: it starts by telling us a surprising reality :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَلَئِنْ أَتَيْتَ الَّذِينَ أُوْتُواْ الْكِتَابَ بِكُلِّ آيَةٍ مَّا تَبِعُواْ قِبْلَتَكَ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????And even if you bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow your Qiblah,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, SEE, the people of the book (the Jews and Christians) will never follow the newly assigned Qiblah mentioned in 2:144, how come then it is Jerusalem, if the people of the book suppose to be already using Jerusalem (the city of God) as a Qiblah?,
-> It gets even better, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَمَا أَنتَ بِتَابِعٍ قِبْلَتَهُمْ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????nor can you be a follower of their Qiblah,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, SEE, an order from Allah to the prophet NOT TO FOLLOW the Qiblah of the people of the book (The Jews and Christians), their Qiblah is Jerusalem as the author stated, but here is something vital that the author missed: a clear cut order from Allah NOT TO FOLLOW THE QIBLAH OF THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK, and it even gets better : ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????وَمَا بَعْضُهُم بِتَابِعٍ قِبْلَةَ بَعْضٍ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????neither are they the followers of each other's Qiblah,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, a clear indication that even the people of the book have different Qiblahs to each other that they should be following, i.e. there is no way that there is one Qiblah for them which suppose to be Jerusalem as the author claimed otherwise Allah will never tell us this :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? neither are they the followers of each other's Qiblah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, and finally the confirmation not to follow their Qiblah as they surely would have desired for Mohammad to do:????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????and if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among the unjust.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
What else I can say bro?
One verse refutes pages and pages of a newly unfounded concept, it was an interesting read for me but for the author to skip 2:145 which clearly telling us the following:
1) The people of the book will never follow the newly assigned Qiblah in 2:144 regardless every sign the prophet showed them
2) The prophet was ordered NOT to follow the Qiblah of the people of the book
3) The people of the book have different Qiblahs between them
Is very questionable indeed
Nothing else to say bro other than if anyone interested to refute back, I only take Quran verses as evidences, for me, the possibly corrupt historical/ archaeology evidences are not admissible in my books.
Also you have to be aware that even if I was a bit confused regarding the author understanding of 2:143-2:144, whatever way I understand it, 2:145 clearly refute the article that the Sacred Mosque is in any where but in Jerusalem, because if it was then 2:145 is a clear contradiction in the Quran because, again it tells us the following:
1) The people of the book will never follow the newly assigned Qiblah in 2:144 regardless every sign the prophet showed them
2) The prophet was ordered NOT to follow the Qiblah of the people of the book (Jerusalem)
3) The people of the book have different Qiblahs between them
I.E. our current Qiblah CAN????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢T be in Jerusalem
Take care bro
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